Pre-show
ROBBIE: Good evening and welcome to "4-Sided Dive." I am Robbie Daymond, your 24th Tavern Keeper, news anchor, and here with tonight's top stories. Bells Hells made headlines last month when they returned to the moon of Exandria and naturally got in the middle of a wizard fight, smack dab in the basement of a smutty little bookstore. According to sources, the two wizards were both very hot and shared an affinity for dirty boys named Bren. Matt Mercer will have more on that later. And now to the world of politics. This is the camera, right? To the world of politics, and a word on everyone's lips today is Swordgate. Last month, resident, kind of dead lady, Laudna, stirred up controversies when she attempted to steal a sword that Orym stole from a definitely dead lady. Marisha Ray is here to set the record straight once and for all. And now let's check in with the Lore Cast, with our resident lorekeeper, Dani Carr.
DANI: Well Robbie, whether or not Imodna can recover from this is yet to be seen. But here we can see a strong system of romantic turbulence between them that can make your Thursday night a little tearful. Also, temperatures in the north around Aeor are heating up due to a concentration of hot boy energy. Later, fashion icon Laura Bailey will walk you through what not to wear during this hot boy summer. We'll have your five-day lorecast within the hour. (tongue click) Back to you, Robbie.
ROBBIE: Thank you, Dani. And finally, of course, Dorian Storm has officially made his way back to Bells Hells after failing to save his friend Opal. Thanks a lot. And his brother Cyrus in ghosting Dariax, but he's brought Orym a brand new outfit. He's brought Orym a brand-new outfit. Bought him one. That's right. I did that in real life. And Robbie Daymond, that's me, will editorialize on those events later. And be sure to stick around for more "4-Sided Dive," or "More-Sided Dive" as properly branded. Because tonight we're doomed. As in we'll be playing a game called We Are Doomed, The Game of Global Panic. It's funny 'cause we're doomed and the name of the game is. Yeah. Welcome to "4-Sided Dive." Let's do the bleeping show.
(people cheering) (upbeat music)
What the fuck is up with that?
ROBBIE: Welcome back. Let's begin tonight with our open discussion segment. I feel like you guys are ready for it.
MATT: Yeah.
ROBBIE: What the fuck is up with that?
MATT: Yeah.
DANI: Yeah!
MARISHA: What the fuck is up with that?
MATT: A lot of things.
ROBBIE: Mm-hmm.
MARISHA: Just a few things.
LAURA: What the fuck is up with what, Robbie?
ROBBIE: I've heard requests. I've heard requests to talk about family issues. Everyone's favorite therapy topic. (laughs) This is a therapy show, right?
LAURA: Yeah. Kinda.
MATT: I mean-
ROBBIE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MARISHA: I think it can get that way sometimes.
ROBBIE: I expected the chairs to be longer and all of us laying back but this will do.
LAURA: Yeah. Oh, shit.
MATT: It's a long time. Come back at the break. We'll fix it.
ROBBIE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MATT: We got you.
ROBBIE: When we came back, one thing that freaked me out with all my new info was Fearne's pop.
LAURA: (gasps) Yeah.
ROBBIE: Yeah. I don't know what the fuck is up with that. I got the book jacket version, but I don't know what's happening.
MARISHA: It's weird 'cause I never know, like, should we fill Robbie in on this? Is that too meta-gamey? Should we just let him discover it on his own?
LAURA: Leave him in the dark.
MARISHA: Leave him in the dark?
MATT: I mean, to a certain degree, I could see that standpoint, but that's more of like what I guess the player preference.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
MATT: Because at the same point, you can very well compartmentalize between what my character knows, what I know as Robbie.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
MATT: So like, I don't want you to feel like you're completely in the dark.
ROBBIE: No, I had this moment where I was thinking like, "Okay, if I come back, I want to know what Dorian knows." So I was kinda like purposely staying away from things–
MATT: Yeah. Yeah.
ROBBIE: –that I wasn't tagged in, or weren't like blowing up online or whatever. But then I also knew the moment would come, if that happened, where Matt would go, "And they tell you everything," and I go, "Fuck!" Because then I have to know everything. So I've been trying since I've been back to like catch up and vibe on it. Yeah. Yeah, but I think there are moments to kind of be like, "I don't know what's happening."
MATT: And that's okay.
ROBBIE: And it's fun, I think.
MATT: Yeah.
ROBBIE: Yeah, yeah.
LAURA: Do you want us to fill you in?
ROBBIE: Well, yeah.
LAURA: Right now?
ROBBIE: Yeah. Book jacket.
MARISHA: I also assume that there's downtime moments where the characters are like, "We walk to this next location."
LAURA: Totally.
MARISHA: Or "We're gonna go get some food," where we're like, "So, here's the deal."
LAURA: Yeah.
MATT: Yeah.
LAURA: We don't talk about every poop we take on streaming.
MARISHA: Yes.
LAURA: But you know.
ROBBIE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
LAURA: I'm sure it happens.
MARISHA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: I guess like--
MATT: Unless you wanna see that, I guess let us know, please, hashtag–
LAURA: I mean, some people do, Grog always did, but.
(laughs)
LAURA: (throat clearing)
ROBBIE: I guess it's weird 'cause like playing with you guys is like playing with the world's biggest franchise fans because you're the genesis of it. So fundamentally, you know everything. You guys have been there--
LAURA: You would think.
ROBBIE: From square one. I don't know.
MARISHA: Isn't that right, Dani? We know--
LAURA: We know everything.
MARISHA: She made a face too. I saw the face she--
DANI: Y'all know everything.
LAURA: Yeah, we know everything.
MARISHA: Dani knows everything.
DANI: Hey Robbie, I've got some recaps I can send you that will help you out so much.
ROBBIE: All right.
MARISHA: Well, yeah, give him the sleeve.
DANI: What?
MARISHA: Oh, I'm looking at Laura.
LAURA: I couldn't tell. You were looking past me. Dang. (laughs) So, okay--
MARISHA: You are--
LAURA: So here's the thing, I know, it's like, "Really?"
ROBBIE: Hi. First got Baghdad.
LAURA: First got to Baghdad, so we went to the Fey Realm.
ROBBIE: Okay.
LAURA: And we fought some people. She's also got like a really powerful nana.
ROBBIE: Okay. That I knew.
LAURA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: That I knew. Nana Morri.
LAURA: Obviously: EXU. And so while we were there, we fought this really bad guy called The Shadowlord. Right?
MATT: Sorrowlord Zathuda.
LAURA: Oh, Shadowlord is from Near.
MATT: Yeah.
MARISHA: We know everything.
ROBBIE: Oh, you so downgraded his lord. It's like this beautiful name, you're just like, "Like The Shadowlord or something," right?
LAURA: Sorrowlord.
ROBBIE: And that's what I'm supposed to do, is sow discord here on "4-Sided Dive."
MATT: You're doing great.
ROBBIE: Okay.
MATT: Doing great.
ROBBIE: Okay.
MATT: Pit us against each other, ruin our friendships--
LAURA: I know, Matt could be totally giving this to you, and I'm the one giving this to you--
MATT: No, I'm loving it. Continue, please.
LAURA: Yeah. So we fought him.
ROBBIE: Mm-hmm?
LAURA: He had a big, scary dragon.
ROBBIE: Okay.
LAURA: Fearne loved the dragon.
ROBBIE: Oh.
LAURA: Also, we've realized that he was her dad.
ROBBIE: Oh.
LAURA: In that moment? No.
MATT: No, it was much later.
LAURA: It was much later. (laughs) He was super cool. And we were like, "Ooh, he's cool."
ROBBIE: Mm-hmm?
LAURA: And then we escaped him.
ROBBIE: Okay.
LAURA: Uh-huh. And then later we found (indistinct). (laughs)
ROBBIE: You what? Were those words?
DANI: Also, Fearne's dad is working with the Ruby Vanguard of Ludinus.
ROBBIE: I learned that.
DANI: That's key.
ROBBIE: I was paying attention
LAURA: Maybe I should do the recaps.
MATT: I think you're pretty caught up now.
DANI: Please join me for my next Tiktok.
ROBBIE: It feels right.
LAURA: Fearne's dad is working with Ludinus.
ROBBIE: Okay.
LAURA: With the Ruby Vanguard.
ROBBIE: Got it. Love the Ruby Vanguard.
LAURA: But they are opposed forces at the same time. Do you know who the Ruby Vanguard is?
ROBBIE: Of course.
LAURA: They're people working with Ludinus.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
LAURA: They're the foot soldiers working with Ludinus.
ROBBIE: Yeah, that makes sense.
MATT: Yeah.
LAURA: No, he's got more than that. It's not just that.
ROBBIE: You guys are doing great, that's all.
MARISHA: And then, Fearne's dad, he like--
LAURA: I'm giving you book jacket.
MARISHA: Yeah, he tried to basically orchestrate Fearne's, in her birth to be a Ruidusborn.
LAURA: Oh, that's an important part.
ROBBIE: She's a vessel. A potential vessel.
LAURA: She's a potential vessel.
MARISHA: She is a potential vessel.
ROBBIE: Okay.
MARISHA: I think—this is no shade to Fearne or Ashley Johnson—I think she's like at the bottom of the list when it comes to options to be the vessel.
MATT: Kinda, yeah.
(indistinct crosstalk) DANI: –exalted.
MATT: I mean, like Zathuda.
MARISHA: Yes.
MATT: Ludinus's plan has been going on for a long time. And there are a number of individuals that he's aligned with over recent years, and such, to try and give them the best chance at success through this. Sorrowlord Zathuda was one of the inner people of that plot to try and create possible Ruidusborn that could be exalted enough—powerful enough to become a possible vessel and kind of stack the deck. However, she ended up being taken by her birth mother and what basically became the adopted father of Fearne. But they both kind of vanished for most of her life. She was then protected by Nana Morri for most of her life and kind of fucked up his plans.
ROBBIE: Mm.
MATT: And now that she's returned, she is Ruidusborn, but all this time he's been basically told that he was a failure in producing a possible vessel. And it's kind of, you can get a bit of that tension inside his relationship with Ludinus and the plot. But now he's seeing Fearne again, seeing what she's capable of, and is kind of excited that maybe she will fulfill her--
LAURA: Ooh, maybe upgrade her.
MATT: Yeah, he's like, "Maybe all this time that they were making fun of me, and Ludinus is being a dick about my failure, he's wrong and I can prove that."
ROBBIE: Yeah.
MATT: And so, yeah, there's all sorts of weird dynamics happening with there. And he's starting to be like, "Maybe you are a good daughter," you know? "Maybe I will be proud of you." And it's just like, "No, you're gross." That's kind of--
LAURA and MARISHA: Yeah.
MATT: Really fucked up. There's a lot of fucked up parental dynamics, but also a lot of disparate relationships and people becoming friends in this narrative and then discovering that a lot of this was kind of engineered in the background. It just kind of went off the intended path and now it's starting to come back, and in some cases blow up in their face, and others kind of maybe align with what they were hoping. And so yeah, it's getting some interesting tension.
ROBBIE: And you spread your net out so far that now you've got all these potential antagonists and protagonists that could come from different angles.
MARISHA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: And so, like when he was introduced in that, we're current, he was introduced in that fight with the Shadow Fearne. My first instinct was like, "Who is this guy?" And you've had an engagement with him before. And it was so, sort of fun to watch that all unfold. I think one of the most fun times I've had playing at the table is realizing that, sure, sometimes you gotta throw enemies at the players or whatever. And I think that's like a misconception, but I've always felt like every engagement, in your games in particular, feels like they're meaningful, they're impactful. It's not like, "Oh, I've got this mini I wanna use," slap it down. It feels like those, and I maybe I'm putting too much on it, but there's a reason for every conflict. It feels meaningful to be a part of it and then to watch it unfold. Like we watched the Fearne fight unfold. I felt like I was participating and I was just watching.
LAURA: I know. I wanted popcorn.
ROBBIE: Yeah, it was awesome.
LAURA: Yeah.
MATT: I like that. Thank you. And I, even the random encounters of a scenario, had the intention of building out the world, you know, even the threats of meeting unique dangers in a new bio--
LAURA: (indistinct) the giants that we could have fought.
MATT: Yeah, I had battlefields built out in case that ended up going sideways. The ice trolls, they're on the path; if you guys hadn't stealthed so well in there, I had a whole battlefield of the tunnel going deeper and getting thinner as your options weed.
LAURA: Oh. Geez Louise.
MATT: But these dangers are meant to be fun challenges and get to use your abilities, and like, you know, hone your tactics and stuff and try out new things. But also to build out a bit of the lore subtly of where you are. You know, what things have taken up residence here? Sometimes it's just fun to fight a monster, but more often than not, I try and make it meaningful to the characters and the story and the overall kind of narrative that we're going with. And yeah, the whole thing with, actually the whole thing with Shadow Fearne and the dark fey aspect of her history was kicked off in EXU.
MARISHA: Hmm.
MATT: When you guys were going through the Verdant Expanse.
MARISHA: Yeah.
MATT: And found the gate, and all of a sudden the Dark Fearne figure there. That was kind of the impetus, the beginning of that story.
ROBBIE: I think that was the one moment that I had, that I got to have with Orym and Ashley, where we all went to go, "Oh!" And the rest of you at the table were like "What?"
LAURA: Woo. What? (laughs)
MATT: That's true.
LAURA: This is brand new.
ROBBIE: Hey, but your mom's kind of sketchy too, right?
LAURA: I don't know what you're talking about.
ROBBIE: Isn't that right, though?
MATT: Actually, yeah, let's get into that then.
ROBBIE: Well, I mean, right? We're talking about family affairs, right?
LAURA: Yeah.
MARISHA: What the fuck is up with that?
ROBBIE: Yeah.
MATT: Yeah. What the fuck is up with that?
LAURA: Look. (laughs)
ROBBIE: So defensive right off the bat.
MATT: I know.
LAURA: No, my mom is sketchy. But also, she has had—she had—has the potential to be a good mom. I think the things that she started out doing had good intentions potentially, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know her.
ROBBIE: What's that saying, road to? I can't remember where it goes.
MARISHA: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
LAURA: Yeah.
MARISHA: That one?
LAURA: Yeah. Yeah, and now she's having been next to Ludinus for so long, I think she's just fully indoctrinated into that cult mentality of like--
ROBBIE: And so, you really think she is? You don't think it's a hustle? You don't think it's like anything like that, or--
LAURA: I think she sees the bad things that Ludinus is doing and she thinks that they're bad. But also, she's been so filled with this idea of Predathos and what he can bring, that while she thinks the things that Ludinus is doing are not moral, ultimately the end goal is worth it.
ROBBIE: Have you guys had a direct confrontation with her in any way?
LAURA: Yes. Yes.
ROBBIE: Did it come to fisticuffs or was it just a chitchat?
LAURA: It could have.
MATT: It almost did.
(indistinct crosstalk)
ROBBIE: Spicy.
LAURA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: Mom fight. I like it.
LAURA: Oh, it was majors. Yeah. Majors, yeah. And then she ended up, we made peace with her and she ended up, she could have come with us or she, we ended up telling her to stay on the moon and basically be a spy for us.
ROBBIE: MPC. Mom PC.
LAURA: Mom PC.
ROBBIE: Yeah, yeah. Cruising along, that sounds awesome.
LAURA: But I don't know if, I didn't trust her coming with. We haven't talked about this yet, right? I didn't trust her coming with us. I thought that if she came with us—
MARISHA: She'd probably blow our cover a little bit too, right?
LAURA: Right. Haven't we talked about this on the show already?
MATT: You talked about--
LAURA: Oh, right, right, right--
MATT: Talked about it a little bit, at the table.
LAURA: Oh, okay, okay, okay. Yeah.
MARISHA: Yeah.
LAURA: I feel like she would've, I wouldn't have trusted her. I wouldn't have trusted that she wouldn't betray us.
MARISHA: Yeah.
LAURA: So it wasn't worth her coming with us and have that dynamic.
ROBBIE: Okay. Okay. Trust and betrayal's a theme. And mommy issues are a theme. And trust and betrayal.
LAURA: Being enticed by a powerful force.
ROBBIE: Yeah. Weird. Where does that relate to anything that's happened? What the fuck's up with that?
LAURA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
LAURA: Which is funny, that parallel between Liliana and Laudna is pretty strong.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
MATT: Yeah.
MARISHA: Yes. Yeah. Which is why that moment of apologizing to Imogen and being like, "Oh, I feel kind of bad now." Because she's definitely feels like her life is not really her own. It's kind of controlled by this outer force.
ROBBIE: Mm.
LAURA: Mm-hmm.
MARISHA: And is kind of resigned in certain ways, to being like, well this is kind of the way it is.
LAURA: And that's how Laudna feels, or that's how you think Liliana feels?
MARISHA: I think, I mean Laudna struggles with it, and I think here recently she's, like I said, so much for Laudna at this point is like, you know, she's watching Fearne and Ashton taking these titan shards and get hyper powerful, and watching Imogen get exalted, and watching all these people have these moments of power. And I think Laudna's assumption is like, "Well, the only way I can get those is kind of through Delilah. Or even if I do get one externally without involving Delilah, it's still kind of in the end--"
LAURA: Feeds Delilah.
MARISHA: Feeds Delilah. So it's kind of a little bit of an ouroboros, that I think at this point she's just like, "I might as well." Or at least Laudna and Marisha is like, "Let's exploit this as far as I can."
ROBBIE: Well, can I ask you a kind of—what do you call—a little above-the-table question? Sort of--
MARISHA: Yeah. Let's do it.
ROBBIE: So, how much of the nature of your build and the things that you're beholding in that, do you feel informs your narrative choices? 'Cause obviously you're having a narrative adventure within the confines of the structure of the game. Do you feel that if those reins were off, and it wasn't part of what gives you your power in game, do you think you'd still make the same narrative choices, because they're more interesting? Or do you think they're inexorably tied?
MARISHA: That's a good question. I work more, "I work." (laughs)
ROBBIE: I asked you a semi-serious question. I wanna know, I wanna know.
MARISHA: I was coming at it from an actor-y perspective for a second.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
MARISHA: But in this context, I'm more of a "narrative informing the build" person.
ROBBIE: Okay.
MARISHA: So I've, 'cause I'm a warlock sorcerer or a multi-class. And there's been times where realistically, at this point, it makes the most sense mechanically for me to just keep leveling up sorcerer. But there will be, like the last time when I dumped a point into warlock was after I had, I think it was after Bor'Dor, and I had gotten a power boost from that aspect and had narrative things. And even though it didn't necessarily, I mean, leveling up is always gonna be good.
MATT: Yeah, it's always helpful.
MARISHA: It's always helpful.
MATT: It's sacrificing optimization--
MARISHA: Yes.
MATT: For the narrative legitimacy of where you're going with the character.
MARISHA: Yeah.
LAURA: Yeah.
MARISHA: So if there's ever something that's like very Delilah-heavy that happens to Laudna, then I'll drop a point into warlock.
LAURA: It's kind of in the same vein as like picking spells. You could pick super powerful spells, but they make no sense narratively for your character.
MARISHA: Yes.
MATT: Yeah.
MARISHA: Yes.
LAURA: So I just--
MARISHA: So I tend to do--
LAURA: Do away with them.
MARISHA: Yeah. Occasionally I will, like I took counterspell because it's a good spell to have.
LAURA: And that's a utility spell, that's different, you know?
MARISHA: It's so utility. Yes.
MATT: But also, counterspell is totally a spell that Delilah enjoyed in her time as well.
LAURA: That's true.
MARISHA: That's true.
MATT: So, still kind of fits the narrative fine.
MARISHA: Yeah. So I'll kind of of ride the line. Sometimes it's like, "All right, I need something more defense-heavy," or "I do need something more offensive-heavy," or whatever. And then sometimes I'm like, "Animate objects, 'cause that's funny."
LAURA: And it's also very useful.
MARISHA: It is very useful.
LAURA: You know?
DANI: Very Laudna.
LAURA: Yes, it's so Laudna.
MARISHA: Yes, exactly.
ROBBIE: And it's our very first fight of the campaign, right?
MARISHA and LAURA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: Didn't we fight inanimate furniture? Right?
LAURA: Yeah.
MARISHA: All the animated furniture. Yeah. So it's all coming around.
MATT: You could start so many adventuring parties by throwing them at a bunch of 1st-level, 2nd-level people.
LAURA: That's so cute!
MARISHA: What if that's what Laudna does after she retires?
ROBBIE: It's her retirement.
MARISHA: Yes!
MATT: Just building heroes.
MARISHA: She's like, "Well, this is how--"
ROBBIE: On a rocking porch. Well, they look like they have potential. Broom! Oh, that's funny.
MARISHA: That's the only way she knows an adventuring party has started, so she's like, "I'm just paying it forward."
ROBBIE: Campaign 19, Laudna's Legends, out there in the world just crushing it.
LAURA: I like that you're imagining Laudna as an old lady now, Ms. Dead End.
MARISHA: We'll see. (laughs)
MATT: Ooh!
MARISHA: Ooh-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
LAURA: Excuse me.
ROBBIE: So fun.
MATT: Speaking of family issues--
MARISHA: Oh yeah, we'll see.
MATT: Yeah, we'll see. How's Dorian processing the loss of Cyrus, bro?
ROBBIE: Oh, shenanigans!
LAURA: (indistinct) talk about it.
ROBBIE: I don't think I've ever gotten even mildly salty at the table, and that's about as close as I've come. Yeah, I was like, "Oh man, I didn't want bro to go." It's a funny thing, right? He was a part of backstory, when we first started, that I turned in to Matt, and I never expected him to come to life, and I never expected to care for him in a visceral way. Whenever you're writing a backstory for any character, whether it be playing a game or something that you're creating in a different medium, you have to connect to it emotionally or it serves no purpose. But for this, to meet him and to fall in love with him, and then to have him taken away, I think there are a lot of people... I try not to dip my toe into the fan side of responses and stuff, but I saw a repeating theme of, oh, Cyrus was always meant to die, and I'll go on record here as saying that was never part of the plan.
MARISHA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: I don't think there was ever a plan for how any of it would unfold, and it was the last thing I expected, because it seems like, I don't know, it just seems like there are so many avenues to get to where you're trying to go, and I didn't expect it, and it hurt unexpectedly. And I also have been carrying around this character thing I want to, if we have time to explore later, there's a lot of shit going on, about Dorian's regrets about how he handled that scenario, and I have regrets about how I handled it as a player, and I think it's been informative for Dorian's journey moving forward. I think he has regrets about choosing vengeance over a possible way to save his brother. I think he failed, got hurt, and couldn't look past the failure to see what the next step would be, to do something good. So I think when he goes to Keyleth and asks to find the body, that just popped into my head, because I had this pathetic last hope that maybe she could save him somehow with this mighty magic that she possessed.
MARISHA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: If any way, that could happen. But I don't know, his spirit waltzed off down the street with Morgana, so that's a pretty heavy narrative moment. I don't know, but it's weird to feel as a player the guilt of your character's actions, and I carried it around for a couple weeks.
LAURA: Oh, yeah.
MATT: If it helps at all with Dorian's narrative drive or goals with this campaign, Keyleth and other people do have powerful magics that occasionally can restore life to those who have passed recently. However, in the wake of the solstice and all of the various ley lines being held and twisting and being tensed, a number of magics aren't functioning properly, one of which is resurrection magic on Exandria. It functioned briefly on Ruidus.
DANI: I was going to ask. I was curious. That was the question I meant to ask you today, that I had forgotten.
MATT: Yeah.
DANI: Yeah, I was wondering about that. It worked on Ruidus.
MATT: It worked on Ruidus. Ruidus operates under its own magical ecosystem, and while it is proximity affected by the ley lines, for its own reasons, it's magic on Exandria proper that's being heavily, by proximity, and by the ever-twisting ley line knots across the world right now, that some magics aren't functioning, and resurrection magic is one of them.
LAURA: So if potentially, we break that connection, and divine magic is still in effect, then we could use high level True Resurrection spells.
MATT: Possibly. I mean, hey, but there are also... Like I said, there are powerful druids and other creatures that are not based in divine magic that can also use these, and also, divine magic comes from sometimes non-divine sources. It can be based in strong, an ethical code that presents itself as a source of power in a world that is suffused with magic. That's why there are paladins that don't necessarily worship a god. They are just attuned to a specific oath, or a particular way of living. There's a lot of... Magic is interesting. A lot of the debate which I enjoy in my mind and how Exandria's ecosystem works is, the classic idea of D&D is, arcane magic is outside of the gods, and divine magic is the gods. That is the classical idea. And to a facet, I think people might believe that on Exandria, but magic is magic. It's how it's filtered and utilized that really defines its source. So, who knows what would happen to divine magic if the gods weren't there? It could be catastrophic. It could be nothing. Who knows?
DANI: Look at Jester and the Traveler.
LAURA: I know.
MATT: Right, yeah. See, there's all sorts of weird things. Also, the rules of understanding of the world were defined by the gods.
DANI: Hey-o!
MATT: As you're learning through unraveling some of those secrets, a lot of what you're told and what everyone had been told isn't always the truth, because those that are in power historically get to write the truths of modern understanding, for good or evil. So that's a lot of fun stuff we get to unravel as the campaign progresses.
ROBBIE: Who knows what will happen to magic, and who knows what will happen to our favorite couple after Swordgate, baby! Drama, mama!
LAURA: Speaking of--
ROBBIE: Yeah, yeah!
LAURA: --thinking about it constantly, living with those choices and going... (groans)
ROBBIE: Oh man.
LAURA: Yeah.
MARISHA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: Why? Why? Why? What was the moment? What was the moment? Was it when you first saw it?
MARISHA: Warlock's going to warlock, baby.
LAURA: Listen, baby!
MARISHA: I don't know. It's tied to the lady in my head. No, genuinely, similarly, none of this was planned.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
MARISHA: Quite literally, because Laudna has struggled being around powerful artifacts, because she does have this pulling force, and she's able to resist, and even with the shard, when we got that, I was like, keep me away. Leave me away from this. And so when Orym just walked in with this sword on his back, I was like... You always kind of have to reference back to the patterns in your behaviors before, and let them inform your choices, and I already was uncomfortable. The fact that he pulled the sword out and was like, oh, practicing with this sword! I was like, this sword murdered all of us at some point in time, and very much Laudna, for an extended amount of time. So I knew I was going to be like, ugh, that's an icky reaction, and it's a powerful weapon that he just went, boop, into our 10 by 10 square-foot room. So I was just trying to be like, oh, you know, Laudna sees that and gets uncomfortable. And then when you did the (mimics heartbeat) I was like, "Aw fuck, here we go." But I didn't know, so I was just kind of trying to, you know, "yes and"--
MATT: That's how it goes.
MARISHA: And then once again--
LAURA: And it keeps going.
MARISHA: Yeah, it just kind of keeps going, and it was very genuine. "Is this sword bad? How bad news is this?" We've already dealt with sentient weapons gods knows how many times, not just in this campaign, but across Critical Role, and then knowing that it was wielded by a very bad person. So that's how it started, was, "Oh, is this an evil sword?" And when Delilah was like, "Yeah, it's so bad--"
LAURA: "Of course it's bad."
MARISHA: "It's so bad."
LAURA: "Oh my god, it's so bad. You should just--"
MARISHA: Yeah, and Laudna does have good intentions, paved to hell, so that's why I kind of started with, yeah, she would justify this by being like, "I've got to help Orym. Got to get it away from him." But then it just kind of kept spiraling and spiraling.
LAURA: And she's not seeing it get out of control.
ROBBIE: You're talking about Delilah's influence, gaslighting and all of that stuff, but I don't know. I'm not as familiar with that relationship as you guys are. Seemed like Laudna was steering the ship for the majority of that confrontation, if I'm being honest. Just from an outside perspective, it felt minimally influenced to me. But that's just me. I don't know how you feel about it. But that was my take on it.
MARISHA: I mean, it's a weird line to walk, you know? It's a weird symbiotic relationship, and then trying to ride that line of--
LAURA: They are one--
ROBBIE: Yeah.
LAURA: They are becoming one and the same at this point. Going up on the roof and seeing the Form of Dread that you chose, madam, that was straight-up Delilah emerging from you, right?
MARISHA: Which I, once again, just did that in the moment. I didn't plan.
LAURA: Yeah, no. I was just like, I think it would just be this.
LAURA: This feels right.
MARISHA: Yeah.
LAURA: And just like you, Matt, talking with her. It's the two voices at the same time.
ROBBIE: So you're leaning into the darkness. Can I ask a question?
MARISHA: Yeah. It's 4-Sided Dive, baby.
ROBBIE: I know. I've got to know. As a player, in your RP, did you like it? Did it feel good to lean into the darkness a little bit? Because from my standpoint, it sure felt powerful being next to it. So did you like it? It's a safe space. It's a four-sided safe space.
MARISHA: A little bit.
ROBBIE: Yeah, a little bit?
MARISHA: It was little nice.
ROBBIE: Yeah, it's fun?
MARISHA: Yeah, well, one, I love the juicy choice when it comes to RP.
ROBBIE: Sure.
MARISHA: Just because, yeah.
MATT: We're not playing this to play it safe.
MARISHA: Yes, and I, from day one, knew what I was getting into with this character and knew that it could go down these paths. Also, it's funny that it happened to be Liam, again. That irony wasn't lost on me.
DANIE: I had to explain Swordgate, I mean Bowlgate, to four of the producers today. It was hilarious.
LAURA: Oh my god.
MARISHA: Yes, so--
ROBBIE: For the producers, can you explain it to one of the me? What was Bowlgate?
MARISHA: So, Liam and I had a moment in Campaign Two, earlier on in Campaign Two--
LAURA: It was pretty early.
DANI: Yeah, it's episode 17 or something.
LAURA: Wow.
DANI: It's early.
MATT: Our good buddy Mark Hulmes was guesting on that, yeah.
MARISHA: Yes.
ROBBIE: Okay.
MARISHA: And there was this bowl of Tiamat or some shit that Mark Hulmes's character--
DANI: It was a ritual bowl.
MARISHA: A ritual bowl, yeah, Calianna wanted, and early on, Mighty Nein, our first, that first run, we were all very--
LAURA: Secretive.
MARISHA: --secretive, and--
LAURA: Everybody was keeping shit from--
MATT: Not fully trusting of each other.
MARISHA: Not trusting, yeah, for kind of a long time.
LAURA: A long time.
MARISHA: Yeah, maybe too long?
LAURA: Especially Caleb.
MARISHA: Especially Caleb.
MATT: Yeah, Liam's character Caleb was super not trusting, with reason.
MARISHA: So he's playing this dodgy wizard who, once again, it was almost like the roles were reversed this time. He wasn't a warlock, but he had these... The demons in his head were his traumatic past, and he was trying to take as many powerful items to make himself more powerful for his own gains. So he, without really consulting with anybody, was like, "Yoink!" to this item that was Mark Hulmes's--
MATT: The crux narrative artifact.
MARISHA: --crux narrative item! And he had been doing this--
ROBBIE: "My story beats!"
MATT: It was amazing.
MARISHA: Pretty much!
LAURA: Can you imagine, just taking one of your items--
DANI: In fairness--
MATT: In fairness--
LAURA: --and then destroying it.
ROBBIE: Notes on fire, yeah.
DANI: In fairness, it wasn't that he was trying to take it for himself. I have to stick up for my boy.
ROBBIE: You're a Caleb apologist in Bowlgate?
DANI: I'm a Liam O'Brien apologist, because I'm trying to not let him kill my character in Curse of Strahd.
ROBBIE: Okay, fair enough.
DANI: No, but in the lore, so what happened is, it was a bowl that they were not sure if it was a good idea to let this stranger, Mark Hulmes's character Calianna, leave with it, because it was an evil bowl used for evil things.
MARISHA: Totally.
DANI: He wanted to destroy it now. He wanted to destroy it, have it done with. Beau wanted to wait and Identify it. Or it was reversed, I don't remember. One of them wanted to wait and Identify it the next day. The other one wanted to just destroy it and be done with it, and Caleb just grabbed the bowl and was like, I'm going to do what I want with it, and--
MARISHA: That's the problem. It's about the communication.
DANI: Again, I'm paraphrasing. Let me make it very clear. He didn't say, "I'm going to do what I want with it." Please don't yell at me, internet. It was a really long time ago. I'm sorry. I don't remember exactly, but it was something like that.
ROBBIE: But you got your revenge five-and-a-half years later.
MARISHA: Yeah, well, so with Bowlgate, he was like, "I'm going to take it," which he'd kind of kept doing repeatedly with items, being like, "I'm making the executive decision," without talking to the rest of the party.
DANI: Because he had Identify.
MARISHA: Because he had Identify.
MATT: Very Caleb Widogast.
MARISHA: In a very Caleb way. It was very much his character.
LAURA: He'd Identify things and then keep the little paper that Matt would give him, and not tell anyone what it said.
ROBBIE: That's not Caleb, that's Liam. What are you talking about?
LAURA: I was like, "What does it do?"
MATT: So funny.
MARISHA: So there was this moment, and Beau is very dextrous, where he's like, "I'm going to take it," and I just went, "Yoink!" and had a keep-away moment, and we got into a big fight over it.
MATT: It was great, yeah.
MARISHA: So, yeah.
MATT: And then Bowlgate came from the community being like, "You could tell they hated each other in that moment. This was such dog shit. God, this is not how you should ever play." And we're like, "No."
MARISHA: "No."
MATT: It was just a really, really fun character moment.
ROBBIE: Fun.
MATT: It was really funny.
MARISHA: Which is why we made the fan, and Liam and I took that picture after the game to be like, "We're still cool! We're still friends, I promise!" He is a really fun person to fight with, though. Even you asking, "Did it feel good?" Travis, afterwards, he was like, "I was having—I didn't want to look at you, and I could feel..." He was like, "Your arguments were pretty strong."
ROBBIE: Oh.
MATT: Don't debate her.
ROBBIE: Travis and I felt like you were one charged magnet, and him and I were the opposite charge, just slowly pushing away from you, trying to be respectful. Whew! It was intense.
MATT: So good. It's so good.
MARISHA: It's fun to have moments where you can just kind of be let off the leash.
MATT: Yeah. Hell yeah.
ROBBIE: We sorted it out, we cruised on, and then--
LAURA: We sort of sorted it out.
ROBBIE: Sort of. Through a very bouncy, circuitous route full of bumbles and fumbles, we ended up in a fan favorite-ish place of Aeor, right?
MATT: Yeah.
ROBBIE: What is the weight of Aeor? Help me. The weight!
MATT: Yeah, so--
ROBBIE: I can feel it whenever you say the name.
MATT: So, a lot of Campaign Three has a lot of facets of Campaign One and Two coming to fruition. This is a lot of long-term stuff that had been building for the past 10 years all kind of weaving together, and Aeor is a very strong point in Exandrian history where in this era called the Age of Arcanum, kind of the Roaring '20s of Exandria's history, where everything was up for the richest folk. All the great mages had these massive mage cities that they dislodged from the actual ground of Exandria and kind of vied for control and power. It was technically more advanced than current day Exandria. Modern-day Exandria is almost a post-apocalypse. Society is kind of pulling out of that and are studying that past to try and catch up to it again in some spaces.
LAURA: I fully picture Aeor with Art Deco vibes now.
MATT: It's art deco meets brutalist, is kind of how I envision it. Like, 'cause it was, Aeor, of all the different mage cities was like the most Cold War Soviet kind of mage place.
DANI: It was function over beauty.
MATT: Correct, yeah.
LAURA: Oh, okay.
ROBBIE: So when you guys did EXU Calamity that took place before the Calamity, not in Aeor, but in a similar type city or--
MATT: Correct, in one of the competitive mage cities–
ROBBIE: Got it.
MATT: —to Aeor, and was the city that its destruction basically began the Calamity, which was the end of that era where all the gods kind of warred and battled, most of society kind of collapsed or was buried. And everything had to kind of reset and climb from zero after that point, after the gods had left beyond the Divine Gate. So Aeor was, at that time, the most powerful city in that world and had a lot of anti-divine culture and ideas around it. And they were developing, secretly, arcane technology that could destroy divine on a mass scale.
ROBBIE: Sure.
MATT: Like possibly kill a god.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
MATT: And so, yeah, they succeeded, tested it, and the gods all went, "Hey, I know we're fighting right now, but game off?" "Game off", and then went and destroyed Aeor.
ROBBIE: Sure.
MATT: And the...so Aeor is considered like essentially a black box of the most powerful arcane knowledge that has been lost for a millennia, essentially.
ROBBIE: Okay.
MATT: And has just recently been rediscovered in this frozen waste. And so in Campaign Two was the introduction of the concept of Aeor and some facets of the end of Campaign Two dealt with some of the emergence of this technology, but also a part of that ancient city that had been kind of ripped out of it in the moment of destruction and became its own weird mutant thing. You don't have to go into that for this. But since it was rediscovered, a lot of different factions have been fighting over ownership to get to this, you know, "What functional pieces of these ruins can we recover and reconstruct or repurpose or reuse?" And Ludinus has been utilizing some of this tech after taking control of these ruins through the Cerberus Assembly to build up his plan in this campaign, which, you know, helped trigger the Apogee Solstice moment with the Malleus Key to lock the moon Ruidus, to pierce through its defensive barriers and essentially bring all this to fruition. So Aeor from Campaign Two is tied into his plans for Campaign Three.
ROBBIE: Hmm.
MATT: And now because of those things, you are all now kind of falling into the, for different reasons, similar footsteps to the Mighty Nein in Campaign Two.
ROBBIE: Yeah. Well you get all these fun moments of sharing, you know, a decade's worth of history and lore that you've crafted from the ground up. And it's really fun, even being a little bit in the dark, seeing you guys get those Easter eggs for yourselves, and that you're giving as your players. But what I've really enjoyed watching is that even for someone who doesn't understand, it doesn't diminish the mystery of what's going on, but it makes it extra valuable for people who do know what's happening, who do have those little gasp moments.
MARISHA: Totally.
ROBBIE: And never have you, I just never watch you as a GM go, "Eh, and this is where this happened." (laughing) You just describe it. And if you know, you know, and if you don't, you don't. So for me as a new player, I'm finding equal enjoyment in a different way of discovering it.
MATT: That makes me happy. That was actually a concern of mine in doing this, was wanting to make sure that for, like you, and even viewers of the campaign, don't feel lost in this. I wanted to, you know, go back to some of these places that we visited, but in many ways, like redescribe them in a new way that feels familiar, but still unique and still make it feel as impactful and fresh for the perspective of Bells Hells.
LAURA: Yeah, 'cause it's them seeing it as opposed to...
MATT: Yeah, well, you guys are, and things have changed in the past seven years since you, you know, the Mighty Nein had their experience in Aeor and you're just now on the cusp of going to a whole new area.
MARISHA: Yeah.
MATT: So that's gonna be exciting. But yeah so that's--
LAURA: That's if we survive.
ROBBIE: Sure.
MATT: Yeah. I guess so.
ROBBIE: Tombtakers didn't do too great.
LAURA: No.
MATT: Not really.
ROBBIE: Yeah, but you've extended your lore through different forms of media, through all sorts of stuff, and that was one that actually caught onto because of the book.
MARISHA: Yeah, you read--
ROBBIE: 'Cause we read "The Nine Eyes of Lucien" and in that book—
DANI: Shout out Madi Roux.
ROBBIE: Which I, yeah, it's amazing. I really enjoyed reading that book because it gave you a perspective that maybe, you know, I don't know how much of it was in the campaign, but boy, I really felt for almost the Tombtakers almost more than the Mighty Nein, because it's their story.
MARISHA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: They're the rivals and you're watching two sides of a rival story. And one of my favorite moments from that book is when you lose a key player down in these sort of like, I don't know if it's the same location, but like--
MATT: That was the same.
ROBBIE: The same location, right. And that, for me, reading the book was literally, I was like, "Ah, I'm gonna take a break here", 'cause it was one of my favorite characters.
MARISHA: Oh no!
ROBBIE: And I was like, "I'm gonna go have lunch and I'll come back." (laughing) yeah, yeah, yeah.
DANI: Oh no, and you didn't know it was coming. Oh no!
ROBBIE: I didn't know. No, no, I didn't know it was coming. It was the lady friend, Lucien's childhood lady friend. Yeah. And I was just like, "Oh". It caught me, but it's a great moment. So I think, you know, even someone like me who's not as familiar with the previous two campaigns, who maybe got it in Campaign Three, but wanted to catch up and enjoys the audio books, they're gonna get a little taste of that, and be brought back in that way. It's really nice the way that it's all feeling crafted together. It's good.
MATT: I'm happy to hear that. That was the purpose of the book, was, I had all this perspective of Lucien and the Tombtakers. They were the villains at the end of that campaign.
LAURA: Yeah.
MATT: There's not a moment to convey their perspective to that depth. So I had my head all this--
LAURA: Yeah, in our brains, they were just villains, villains, bad guys.
MATT: And they were, but with reasoning as to why they were doing what they were doing and to a certain degree, especially with Lucien, victims of things beyond their control as well.
ROBBIE: Sympathetic villains, for sure.
MATT: Yeah, that was the intent. So I'm glad that worked out well. But all that peppers into the lore of Aeor because the Cognouza, the entity at the end of the book the thing that kind of broke Lucien, that was one of the wards of Aeor. It was one of the portions of the city that had kind of teleported itself out at the moment of its destruction and didn't end up in the location it wanted to. It ended up in like this horrifying psychic storm in the Astral Sea that basically destroyed and merged all the minds of the people that lived there and then shattered their psyche that had to slowly reform over time. And the first entity that it really connected with, that didn't lose its mind or go vanishing, was Lucien.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
LAURA: Wow.
ROBBIE: Well, it's exciting because at that moment, three years ago or whatever it was, that was your big bad and now it's tangential, it's a lieutenant, it's something within the circle that there's something even bigger around every step and yeah. It's a service to the world that you've created. It's enjoyable to see.
MATT: Thank you.
MARISHA: It is really funny sitting next to you, Robbie, at the table.
ROBBIE: What did I do, did I have food on my face? (laughing) No, no.
MARISHA: We'll have these moments where we will be like, "Oh, oh, it's Astrid", or "Oh", and I see you and I can, 'cause you're in my periphery, and so you're going...
LAURA: Yeah.
ROBBIE: Yeah.
LAURA: I get to see his face as he does it, just...
ROBBIE: Why do you think I built a low-intelligence character? (laughing)
MATT: They're the best!
ROBBIE: Easy. No thoughts, all just good vibes.
MATT: Yep. Yep.
ROBBIE: And with that, it's time.
???: Woo-woo!
ROBBIE: More questions from the Tower of Inquiry.